There is a false teaching that has been around for centuries and is still being taught by many today. It is called sinless perfection.
(Beware as those passing it off as truth will NOT admit it is called sinless perfection but it clearly is)
Disclaimer:
Since we will be refuting this sinless perfection doctrine using God's Word: we in NO way promote sin in anyway! We stand against ALL sin! Nor are we taking a calvinsist/denominational religion "easy view of sin" as to say it is allowable and covered by Christ's blood. We see the sinless perfection ways and the man made denominational Calvinist views as both very bad theological ditches that MUST be avoided.
1 ) Says you can sin all you want.
2) The other says you can attain a state of NO sin.
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Matthew 15
We at dontperish believe we must stay in the " middle of the road", the narrow road and out of the ditches on ALL teachings for pure instruction/doctrine and reproof and we will use the Word to show the correct stance on sin so we can avoid the ditches for our walk and for God's glory.
Let us move on....
We came across this topic when a couple emailed us for possible fellowship from Michigan. We then spoke on the phone and they began to ask various questions about scripture. It did not take long to see they had fallen into the trap of this age old lie of sinless perfection; though they deny its name. I lovingly tried to warn them about the internet teacher (Mike Desario) who was teaching them this ill theology/false gospel.
See a testing of Mikes false gospel here:
https://bewareoffalse-unbiblicalteachers.blogspot.com/2018/08/mike-desario-his-false-gospel-exposed.html
I gave them 4 or 5 scriptures (included in the list below) that directly refute his teachings but they rejected those at the start and clung to his ill theology. They came back with a bunch of scriptures "they say" proves their beliefs and they said that we are just "easy on sin". (Someone who knows us very well LAUGHED at that remark) but it is a common tactic they use. If you stand against their being sinless; they say you must allow sin and it is a lie! We will cover each and every one of the scriptures in this article as I was unable to get Jason to reason in the scriptures before he accused us of being false teachers and Gnostics; then he stopped emailing. (It is his wife who with Mike has helped poisoned his mind with this ill theology as we have emails from them stating....
SHE IS SINLESS!)
Please pay attention here: (this is not gossip but a teaching moment)
This lady is maybe 30 years old and she is leading her husband into error/false ways. She has her husband convinced she is now PERFECT and that she can walk PERFECT/SINLESS the rest of her life. (50 more years... sinless and perfect if she makes it to 80)
That poor man is setting there under the pressure of that and trying to decide if his heart is PERFECT enough yet so he can be born again then also.... live SINLESS/PERFECT the rest of his life????And if he sins just once after he is born again; he is hell bound and hopeless!!!
What a demonic sad plight and we tried our best to rescue him/them as we care with the Word but he accused me of trying to separate him and his wife. (We just wanted to separate him from her sinful theology)
It should be noted his wife was NOT obedient to him thus not perfect at all from our view point. She emailed me (a man) to reason more in the word after her husband said they were done with us and wanted no further communication. I fear ,as I told him, Eve poisoned Adam in the garden that is his fate unless he turns. (Adam was at fault too )
Another terrible and deadly sign they are deceived is Jason said they use God's Word, history and logic to build this theology. Jesus said we are to live by every word out of the mouth of God. Matthew 4:4
Note:
Jason in Michigan was bold in his words against us and we take that serious. He was given a standing offer to come on John 424 radio and reason via phone (Isaiah 1.18) to defend his harsh accusations of us ( being false on sinless perfection and gnostics) and defend his theology of sinless perfection. He has declined it....
saying he is not even born again?
(that comment you will understand as we go on.....)
Sadly like so many in error he will stay in the dark vs coming into the light and truth of God's Word. John 3:19-21 does tell us God's people come into the light, not stay hidden in the dark.
**** We need to explain just what this group (we believe is cult like) really believes so you can understand the issue better:
1) They believe repentance is a cleansing / purifying of your heart to a sinless state before new birth and not a turning of your mind to God.
2) Only by a perfect pure heart you are born again (Jason, while he knows much of Gods Word is convinced that he can't be born again until he attains a place of pure heart perfection and is in total sinless-ness)
3) They make a big distinction between big and little sins ( willful and non willful ) Much time is spent by them on the "sin that leads to death" from 1 John even though God's Word never tells us clearly what that is? They blur what sin really is and have confusing teachings on what is sin???? ( many sins they say are not really sins at all like fleeting thoughts, ignorant sins or a sin between brothers??? It makes little sense as... sin is sin.)
4) They teach once your born again; you "cannot" ever sin and if you do; you are lost eternally and rarely if ever can you come back to repent.
5) They teach you must work and rely on your own righteousness once you're born again; not Christ's blood for salvation.
6) They do not believe the human flesh is fallen or sinful in ANY way at all. (A form of pelagianism / no sin from Adam affecting the human race. Pelagianism also means that a person can choose good and evil without divine aid-so they must tear out Romans 1 then?)
If you know God's Word you can see what a dangerous and false teaching this really is.
When Jason and his wife emailed us back they gave us a whole bunch of scriptures and being that we are Acts 17 Bereans; we looked at each one and we will explain how they do NOT endorse their ill theology at all. Sadly, they are good at twisting scripture, taking verses out of context and using bad bible study habits to make their ideas work but they do not work at all. This entire belief system is sinful and leads to destruction!
They focused on repentance as a purifying/purging of the heart from all sin and that it must be perfect before you come to God. We cannot find that definition in the scriptures at all? What we do find is what the word repent means:
Metanoeo in Greek means.... to change your mind.
While getting a pure heart and being holy eventually will be the ultimate result of changing your mind about God, it is NOT the true meaning of repenting.
Example:
The thief on the cross had no time to purify his heart as they describe and become perfect. All he did was...repent/changed his mind seeing he was sinful and Christ was the Savior. Jesus promised him heaven that day. Luke 23
Moving on:
See the following verses they gave us (their key words in bold) and our explanation in blue that refutes their theology:
1) John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
*Jason and his wife claim this verse means we do not have a cloak or hiding place in Jesus for sin. The problem is, in context Jesus was talking about the "unbelieving world" NOT His people by faith. Bad context study here by them.
2) Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins
*The entire book of Hebrews is about the Jews NOT leaving their faith in Christ. If you willfully sin / turn away from Christ, you have no hope! Verse 38-39 says those who draw back, that is they leave the faith. This cannot mean any willful sin means you're lost forever as the scriptures we will give you at the end of this article show God does forgive sin in those who continue in Him.
More bad study tactics shown in them.
3) 2 Peter 1:3-11
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
*They claim this says we get a divine nature so we can't sin now. This is false as their own scripture says to ADD to your faith .... meaning we grow in the Lord in knowledge and in our ability to be more holy for Him "over time" not all at once via a man made pure heart. More scripture twisting by them.
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
*This is one of their favorite verse as they claim it says you can NEVER sin. Actually if they would look at the Greek the word commit is Poieim it means to practice sin. This verse says if your born of God you won't practice or live in sin as a habit.
4) James 4:7-10
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
*They claim we are to be pure of heart / sinless before we can be of God but again it is bad contextual study here. James is speaking to??? believers. They were already of God and he says leave sin and be pure. It means to repent really, which they say you can't do once your of God??? How do we purify our hearts? Sinless perfection folks have it wrong. They dont do it alone God does it by faith!
Acts 15:9
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
5) Ezekiel 18:21-31
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
*In this verse they say: see you must leave all your sin before God receives you. While we agree the bible calls us all to leave sin; again their own verse fails them as it calls Israel Gods people to "REPENT" (turn your mind to God.) Proving we can fall into sin after faith and God calls us to "repent". (note: we should never take sin lightly as repentance is a gift that God can remove from some see Esau) Also the fact that God says keep all my law or it is sin refutes their idea not all sin is sin???? They are very confused.
Even the people who did 'unknowing' sin in the old Testament had to atone for their sin. (Leviticus 4 ) Jesus did that us His people once and for all!
Hebrews 10
12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
6) James 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
*Here the Word tells who to lay aside those things? Yes again it is "believers" James is talking to believers so they were in sin and then they were called to put it aside as they grow in holiness. You can't be fully perfected in anyway until you're in and following Christ via His Word and Spirit. More terrible bible hermeneutics here on their part
7) 2 Corinthians 10:6
And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
*Yes we are to obey but that does not mean believers cannot fall into sin and need to repent and then strive deeper. Look at verse 5 it says take every thought captive for Christ. If you're sinless and pure at heart why do you need not struggle on for Christ? They lie as they are not sinless at all.
8) Hebrews 6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
*This book is all about the Jews leaving Christ. It is not just a sin that has them unable to come to repentance. Falling away means they fell into unbelief/ apostasy this proves nothing for a sinless perfection theology at all! Of course if you leave the faith you have NO hope! This is not about sin but about leaving the faith.
9) Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
* Yes indeed there is a purging. We can purge and God does a purging within men but it is not a purging we do all on our own or before we are born again. What purges/cleanseth us?
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
10) 1 Peter 1:13-22
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
*Again who purifies us and by what? God does via faith Acts 15:9 we don't do it on our own without Him.
2 Peter 2:2 says we need to GROW, how do you grow if you're already perfect?
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1 Peter 2:11 proves we do war against the fleshly lust within us.
Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
This is proving man does have a sin issue with his flesh...call it whatever you wish. Many more verses we will post will show this clearly.
11) James 1:4
But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
* This word perfect actually means in the Greek to be "mature and complete". We are to strive for the best we can do in the Lord but scripture tells us all over believers can and do fall/sin. They can be restored via repentance and the blood of Christ which is our ONLY hope. Sinless perfection folks are liars and cling to their own righteousness / works which is spiritual suicide! See Ephesians 2
12) Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
* This verse does not mean we do not fight our flesh as humans. Paul is saying the bigger battle is against the real enemy of our souls satan. (He is NOT flesh but a spirit ) Again they show their BAD out of context study habits.
13) Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
* Paul is instructing us to NOT allow sin to reign in us, this means our flesh is a problem. Who is he speaking with ??? Believers! In verse 19 Paul tells us we have infirmity in our flesh, that is why we must battle and watch out for that! Also read Romans 7 where Paul talks long about his fallen flesh causing him to sin and NOT do good but Paul says 'who can save me'?? Christ can save him!!!! (this is long after Paul was born in Christ)
14) John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
* Here John tells us we are born of God and that is true if we have repented. But our flesh is still the old sinful man (it's not born of God) and as proof .Jesus warns believers about sin in them in various verses like:
Mark 9:47
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
They will tell you that is not sin that leads to death but if a sin casts you into hell the end is death amen? They are very confused.
Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
*This verse indeed says to flee sin and follow the things of God out of a pure heart. It is speaking to believers and as we showed you faith is what purifies our heart; not just our own works. Acts 15:9
16) 1 Timothy 1:5
Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
*Of course we are to strive to have a pure heart but the issue is how do we get it? We cannot do it on our own but it is a combination of repentance, faith, God's Word and spirit at work in us. If they would read 1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jason tried to say that is Paul's past only... I think, it is mostly past and even some present as we all can sin! (Paul was a murderer and wrestled his flesh) Paul says he IS the chief of sinners meaning he still wrestles and battles his sinful flesh but still has VICTORY in Christ as he does not live in sin (see Romans 6) Praise be to God!!!
17) Jeremiah 4:14
O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
*Again this verse is about repentance and leaving sin yes. And in context Israel was already God's people but they say you can't repent and come back to God? That is a lie as look what verse 1 says of this chapter they use:
If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.
Of course those who are of God will leave sin and strive to obey Him in all their ways.
This shows we are to repent, leave our fallen ways and God will allow us to repent... most times.
It does NOT show perfection and ONLY pure of heart perfect people are Gods people. It shows His grace will come to us if we repent continue in Him and strive after His ways not our own. If perfection was the ONLY mark God allowed; we all would have been killed long ago amen?
18) 2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
*Again we are called to leave sin as we follow Christ and again this verse is telling believers to flee sin and be holy. It is not possible to clean up your own self "to perfection" especially before you're born of God via faith/new creation as the faith is what does a work in us!
They are deceivers indeed with their twisted ways.
19) James 1:12-17
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
verse 27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
* In this chapter of James he is again instructing believers in what to avoid and how to serve God avoiding evil. If it was NOT possible for a believer to sin and be spotted by the world; WHY are the scriptures full of warnings about NOT falling INTO sin? We are to strive to obey and be holy but it is in our flesh and the possibility to sin is there so beware.
20) Hebrews 13:21
Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
*Again this verse does NOT mean you will be flawless and sinless as the word perfect here in Greek really means complete and mature. We get mature by seeking and reading and applying and obeying Gods word and REPENTING / confessing our sins when we fail Him. Nowhere does God's Word teach His people attain a sinless perfection this side of heaven.
21) Matt 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
*Again this verse does NOT mean you will be flawless and sinless as the word perfect here in Greek really means complete and mature. We get mature by seeking and reading and applying and obeying Gods word and REPENTING / confessing our sins when we fail Him. Nowhere does God's Word teach His people attain a sinless perfection this side of heaven.
22) 1 John 3:3
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
*What does Gods Word say purifies us? Faith / Acts 15:9 and Jesus blood / 1 John 1:7
This verse says we WILL BE like Him when he comes for us again.
The rest of that chapter tells us the full truth:
4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
So if your born of God your do not continue and live in sin though you have the potential to sin as we have seen all over the scriptures.
Disclaimer:
Since we will be refuting this sinless perfection doctrine using God's Word: we in NO way promote sin in anyway! We stand against ALL sin. Nor are we taking a calvinsist/denominational religion "easy view of sin" as to say it is allowable and all just covered by Christs blood. We see the sinless perfection ways and the man made denominational calvanist views as both very bad theological ditches that MUST be avoided.
1 ) Says you can sin all you want
2) The other says you can attain a state of NO sin/perfection to rest in.
Both are in sin....and in a ditch!
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Matthew 15
We have shown you using their own scripture that not in one place does God's Word teach a sinless perfection theology and the ONLY way to get to it is to twist scripture and ignore many others.
We would like to list MANY scriptures below that indeed show that the sinless perfection theology is false, dangerous, a heresy and thus needs to be rejected. (see the * next to verses below for a explanation of the main point)
Matthew 26.41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
*Jesus said the flesh was an issue!
Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him
*if we didnt have a sinful flesh why is it crucified?
Romans 8:8
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
*again the flesh is NOT a good thing!
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
*more verses about the flesh and our struggle that they say is not there!!
Leviticus 4:1-3
And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: 3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the Lord for a sin offering.
*This verse shows us ALL sin is against God so it does away with the idea of different sins.
Numbers 15:27
And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
*even sins of "ignorance" needed a sacrifice to be forgiven. They say no.....and make differences in sins.
Ezekiel 45:20
And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erreth, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house.
And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erreth, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house.
*even in the old testament God's people erred/sinned and His priests worked to cover that sin. Now Christ has done that in the New!
Luke 12:46-47
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
*even the servant who did ignorant sin was beaten, just less. This destroys their sin theology.
1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
*all sin is bad before God and it must have a blood sacrifice to cover it.
Acts 15:8
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us
*God gave them the Holy Spirit BEFORE they knew all of God's law to follow as gentiles. (see Acts 15 for context) This rebukes their "must be perfect" before you're born of God theology.
Ephesians 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind
*Here we DO see the old man and the renewed spirit. It proves our flesh is fallen.
Colossians 3:9
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
*Paul is telling believers to put off sin; why if they are perfect already? It makes no sense, we are to grow and obey more and more as we go and grow from babies to be mature in Christ.
1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
*Paul himself says he brings his flesh into subjection or he will be a castaway. If he was PURE and perfect already what is his struggle?
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
*John is saying we are not yet fully like Him but we will be one day. (when the flesh is gone)
2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
*Here Paul tells believers to cleanses themselves. How does God's Word say we are cleansed? By faith and Jesus blood. Acts 15:9 and 1 John 7
Proverbs 4:7
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
*Here we are told to get wisdom and it is speaking to God's people. We are NOT perfect when we are born again we grow into many aspects of being like Christ.
Matthew 15
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
*Here we are told to get wisdom and it is speaking to God's people. We are NOT perfect when we are born again we grow into many aspects of being like Christ.
Matthew 15
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man
*Jesus sure taught the heart was a dark place didn't He?
Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
*Again... Jesus taught about the evil that is in the heart but they say man is not evil or impure?
Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
*Here Paul is saying our standing before Christ is about our faith NOT our perfection.
Galatians 2:11
But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
*Peter was not perfect as he sinned and Paul clearly rebuked him!
Galatians 2:21
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
*Paul is saying if you try to be made righteous by keeping the law, Jesus died in vain. That is what sinless perfection folks do they demean salvation via His Work on the cross.
James 5:19
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
*How can this happen if they all had perfect hearts and were sinless?
James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
*James is telling believers to do these things, how can that be of they were already perfect before salvation?
Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
*Christ "maketh" intersession for His people. Why if they are perfect and sinless?
1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
*These verses call them what they are...liars! Gods people are NOT sinless and perfected but they should long to be in their spirit!
Titus 2:13-14
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
*Here we see we are being taught as believers and again... HE purifies us. We cant do it alone as the sinless perfection crowd say they can.
Ultimately they call our Savior and Lord Jesus a liar!
Why????
They claim we CANNOT sin and be forgiven even once after we have been born again or are of Christ. Here is what Jesus says!
Matthew 18:21-22
Matthew 18:8
Ultimately they call our Savior and Lord Jesus a liar!
Why????
They claim we CANNOT sin and be forgiven even once after we have been born again or are of Christ. Here is what Jesus says!
Matthew 18:21-22
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Matthew 18:8
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
* Jesus seemed to think believers could sin.......
Mathew 18:15-17
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
*Again does Jesus teach a brother could sin against you? Indeed he does!
Matthew 18:35
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
*More sinning and forgiving seen here among brothers, and that is our great hope! Forgiveness in Christ (though it is NOT a license to sin!!! Romans 6)
Revelation 2:15:16
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
*The sinless perfection crowd say believers CANNOT sin or repent again, then how is it that Jesus (Spirit,Word) calls out their sin and calls them to repent?
It seems safe to say that not only have we answered all of their twisted scriptures they say proves they ill theology; we have given you MANY more verses that directly refute them.
Jason in Michigan....
We have now done what you challenged us to do. We answered all your verses. Why did you run in the dark vs coming into the light and reasoning over these truths and then give a answer back for the hope in you?
1 Peter 3:15
Need more scripture to destroy this bad theological system?
Jason in Michigan....
We have now done what you challenged us to do. We answered all your verses. Why did you run in the dark vs coming into the light and reasoning over these truths and then give a answer back for the hope in you?
1 Peter 3:15
Need more scripture to destroy this bad theological system?
The book of Romans is THE place to go to refute these people.
(Jason never gave a reply to Romans 7 )
There you will see Paul struggle with his flesh and admit he is NOT perfect at all.
Read the entire section and you will come away with this knowledge....
*Man is sinful in his flesh
*Believers do struggle and at times fall/sin via their flesh
*Our ONLY hope to save us.... is Christ
Romans 7
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
(Jason never gave a reply to Romans 7 )
There you will see Paul struggle with his flesh and admit he is NOT perfect at all.
Read the entire section and you will come away with this knowledge....
*Man is sinful in his flesh
*Believers do struggle and at times fall/sin via their flesh
*Our ONLY hope to save us.... is Christ
Romans 7
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
That is false theology!
On sin:
At several points they contradicted themselves. Both Mike D. the false teacher and this couple said smaller things like envy and strife are not really sins at all. Then they said if you even have envy or strife you are in sin and lost???
Also... they said if you sin after being born again you're NOT a believer at all and are hell bound. When pressed to clarify their point (they say) that you can't repent and be redeemed, they said well in SOME cases a second repentance is allowed but never showed us where this is in scripture. They are a sad and confounding bunch for sure!
Now we must note that this is a verse they really focus upon to try and say some sin is greater and others lesser.
1 John 5:17
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
Sadly they have built a entire theology on this "sin unto death" but we do not have anything more about it in the Word so it is NOT wise to guess and build whole systems there around it. Clearly ALL sin is against God and needs to be atoned for. Christ is that full atonement NOT any mans ability to walk in perfection and thus they trust in themselves after being born again. They clearly challenge the atoning FULL work of Christ in the cross that scripture clearly teaches:
See these MANY verses on His atonement:
Romans 5:11, Matt 26:28, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 2:9, 2 Corinthians 5:19,
1 John 4:10,Hebrews 2:17 and 1 Timothy 2:6
They have a terrible problem this sinless perfection cult.
They say Jesus washes away your past then sins only then you must walk in perfection. Well then if they do sin at any point after that; they are doomed as they have NO blood to cleanse them. The bible says it is blood alone that gives sin remission. (they are even wishy washy in this teaching that you can ask for forgiveness of sin after your born again.... or you cannot?)
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
How sad, hopeless and diluted they really are!
We actually have a video of their false teacher Mike Desario saying:
"call it works or merit call it what ever you want; but that is how you get to heaven"
(We will be doing a video on him and his lies soon....)
What we have in this false system of beliefs is a denial of the full work of Christ on the cross and a going back to keeping the law and ones own works/righteousness vs the free gift God gave at the cross.
Ephesians 2
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Clearly the sinless perfection crowd is BOASTING of themselves and their perfect works. In that; they are lost as lost can be! They rest NOT in Christ who made the sacrifice once for all then sat down at the right hand of God. Hebrews 10:12
God required a spotless lamb for the remission of sins yet they are presenting themselves a spotless before God, this negates the blood of Christ.
In closing... we do not approve of any sin!!!!
Should His people be holy, obey and strive to NOT sin ever?
Should His people be holy, obey and strive to NOT sin ever?
The answer is ....yes, yes and yes! (we strive for that daily and teach it all over our teaching blog http://spiritandtruthdiscernment.blogspot.com/
Does the Word of God teach us that His people are still imperfect/fleshly, affected by sin and have the ability to not be perfect and thus sin against the Father even after we are His? Yes it does show us that all over the scriptures. Is there any hope if we fall into sin? Yes! Israel modeled that how many times? How did they come back to God? They repented. Christ came to seek the lost and via the gospel ( which these sinless perfection people rarely speak of? ) we find the path to eternal life. Then we are striving for obedience and holiness/maturity in Him to the end as our FRUIT that we are truly His. See the biblical gospel here:
We pray they all repent and come out of heresy, error / sin and into the truth that is found in Christ alone; not their own so called "perfect works" and righteousness. The Pharisee's tried that theology and how did that work for them?
See Matthew 23 where Jesus calls them hypocrites over and over!!!!!
Please seek the truth in God's Word and not in false ways of man. Test every thing including us. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Stay out of the spiritual ditches like sinless perfection.
Our website points the way via the Holy Word to the biblical gospel, the true NT church model and we expose man made religion.
All for His glory!
See Matthew 23 where Jesus calls them hypocrites over and over!!!!!
Please seek the truth in God's Word and not in false ways of man. Test every thing including us. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Stay out of the spiritual ditches like sinless perfection.
Our website points the way via the Holy Word to the biblical gospel, the true NT church model and we expose man made religion.
All for His glory!
God be praised!
www.dontperish.com