We received an email from a single woman asking for clarification on several topics and accusing us of teaching 'new laws'.
For clarification and edification of the body, we will place the entire email below unedited with our responses...
***in bold blue.
I've been perusing your sites and want to acknowledge and applaud your pursuit of the truth found only in God's word.
*** To God be the glory, go deep in the truth!
I also want to point out certain areas where [it seems] you are establishing 'new laws.'
*** We do not teach 'new laws' and the email does not give evidence or documentation of us doing that.
*** Actually, that is not the message. The message is clearly states as we show above. See a detailed article that expounds on adorning in the life of a godly Christian.
*** We use God's Word as our standard of what constitutes biblical attire. We have a detailed article that differentiates between 'modest' apparel and 'biblical apparel' here:
*** That is a false accusation and we reject that statement because we clearly do not have a dress 'code'. We clearly just teach perimeters of what God's Word says. (This can have various applications / forms for people within God's word but not a set uniform.) We have many articles on biblical dress under this link. Please read them thoroughly as there is much detail from God's Word.
http://spiritandtruthdiscernment.blogspot.com/search/label/APPAREL
***Saying that we teach 'close toed shoes' is a lie, nowhere on our sites do we teach this.
*** Correct. The bible doesn't specify colors but it does say a woman is to be shamefaced (1 Timothy 2) and her clothing should match that. The bible does speak against patterns as those are adornment and adornment is not to come from clothing, hair or gold etc as per 1 Peter 3 and 1 Timothy 2.
*** God never ordained a specific prayer shawl. Clearly we live under the New Testament and have been given the guidelines on how to do that. See the responses and links above.
*** That is false accusation because we do not go by 'our standard', we clearly go by God's standard. Tassles were given in the Old Testament and proper there, we clearly live in the New Testament today not by Torah and its 613 law's.
*** Yes they wore sandals in Jesus' day but we do not have proof of what they looked like. Nowhere do we say a believer has to have their feet covered so this is a false statement.
*** We see no scriptures where women rolled up their skirts. We see that men were to gird their loins, one example is Job 38:3
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
*** We prefer biblical terms such as biblical or unbiblical as we've show in the article links above. God's Word teaches what is biblical and what is unbiblical for dress. Women are to wear 'katastole' long, loose robe type garments as we've shown in the article links above under apparel. 1 Tim 2
*** Breeches were given to the male priests, not the women. Please read this detailed article:
*** A very large, plain shirt over a long loose skirt is biblical regardless of what so called 'department' a person buys it from.
*** We've clearly shown in the article links above that God's word teaches women to wear long robe type garments not pants. Please see those articles again.
*** A plain jacket that covers a person would be considered biblical.
**** We do not see scriptures that say 'in the church'. We have a detailed article about that here:
*** 'Church' is an unbiblical term please see an article about that here:
http://spiritandtruthdiscernment.blogspot.com/search/label/Church%20vs%20the%20biblical%20Ekklesia
(We have had to vet that word (church) from our teaching and are still doing so )
*** We have many detailed articles here that biblically answer that statement.
***Correct, we see in the scriptures that the women had veils as part of their clothing.
*** Correct. In the article links above, we show through God's Word, many times, why headcovering is for all time.
***We clearly use God's Word as our definitive guidelines and have shown that in the article links above.
*** We reject the assumption that we teach people would need to look like us. We do not teach a biblical uniform. We teach what God's Word says and under that is liberty to choose styles etc as long as they are kept within His word.
*** Request for clarification is a good thing but accusing the brethren of teaching falsely without documentation is dangerously in line of Proverbs 6- lies and slander. Apologizing that one is not trying to be aggressive and then putting in the assumption that we are placing yokes on believers is false accusation. People who make accusations before testing out the matter and having proof are actually doing what the accuser of the brethren does. Please test more carefully as you seek truth!
*** This is another false accusation. Nowhere do we state that women are 'restricted' to sharing the gospel with only women. See the statement above for a warning on that.
*** Women are to have a meek and quiet spirit per God's Word, which is what we teach. If someone is against that teaching they need to examine their hearts through God's Word.
*** We must be careful not to add to scripture (Deut 5, Rev 22) or assume what is not there. The woman at the well told the town but we do not know how, so we cannot assume they way she did it. We see no examples of woman evangelists on their own in the NT Word.
*** Yes, Jesus told them to tell the brethren. We cannot assume 'how' they told them as that is outside scripture and it in no way promotes woman evangelists.
*** Yes indeed a woman may share the gospel in the manner of a godly woman.
*** We do not teach that and reject that assumption that we do. That is false accusation.
*** Scripture shows women are not to usurp the authority over man 1 Timothy 2. There are no scripture verses that state that it only refers to being inside the body.
*** Correct, she had the oversight of her believing husband.
*** Correct, they taught their son/grandson as woman are to be Titus 2 keepers at home with children.
*** Nowhere do we teach any limitations of the gift of the Holy Spirit to men only. This is a false statement....
*** If there are men in the body, they are to be the teachers and women can refer men to them. If there are no men, we clearly teach a woman can share the gospel but she is not to go outside the bounds of teaching a believing man. 1 Timothy 2, 1 Corinthians 14.
*** This topic becomes very detailed and needs to be answered on a case by case situation. Scripture is very clear that women are to be silent in the body and not to teach men and our theology comes right from Paul / God's Word.
*** This is a vague statement that has no scriptural evidence to support it and would need to be dealt with in a body, with deeper study.
*** Bodies of believers face to face would discuss this in greater detail pertaining to each situation and the oversight of the elders.
*** No. Childcare for someone who must work to support their family is nothing close to Sunday school. Sunday school is an invention of the false man made system which removes children from the spiritual teaching from their family. Childcare is caring for the daily welfare of a child while the parent works to provide for their family. Not the same at all!
*** God hates all false ways. See Psalm 119:104 Sunday school and man made organizations are false ways which must be repented of not embraced. Romans 16:17
*** That was instructed in the Old Testament. They sacrificed animals and stoned people then too. We live in the New Testament where the instrument of worship is ourselves, singing from the heart. Jesus nor Paul modeled instruments. Read an article here about that:
*** We draw the line from God's Word. We are to keep those traditions 2 Thessalonians 2:15 There are many people who have talents that if used would be sinful. Just because a person has a 'talent' does not mean it should be used to worship God. (Football players have talents, magicians have talents, thieves have talents etc.)
*** We are to do all things in line with God's Word. Talents used will line up to scripture. Acapella songs are indeed biblical...
*** We love to encourage others in truth and we just ask those who read our website to 'thoroughly' read before sending false accusations or insinuations that do not get to the truth.
We always welcome questions on clarification and can refer most any answer through our detailed articles. We take truth from God's Word and write in great detail to help the brethren glorify God by conforming to it.
God be praised.
For clarification and edification of the body, we will place the entire email below unedited with our responses...
***in bold blue.
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*** To God be the glory, go deep in the truth!
I also want to point out certain areas where [it seems] you are establishing 'new laws.'
*** We do not teach 'new laws' and the email does not give evidence or documentation of us doing that.
For example, in the sisters' blog on clothing:
Regarding 1 Peter 3:3-5
"Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:"
"Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:"
*** Peter is clearly teaching that women are NOT to adorn their outsides and then gives examples of how NOT to adorn the hair or clothing or wearing gold etc. He then goes on to expound on how a woman IS to adorn herself; from the insides as a godly woman.
The message here is that women should not focus on adorning their outward but rather the inner man.
Yes, this does not negate the need for proper and modest attire but on whose standard is that set of what constitutes biblical attire?
I see in the sisters' blog the establishment of a dress code (ex: skirt/dress to the floor, closed toed-shoes, no patterns etc).
http://spiritandtruthdiscernment.blogspot.com/search/label/APPAREL
***Saying that we teach 'close toed shoes' is a lie, nowhere on our sites do we teach this.
Surely, it doesn't have to be loud clothing but the bible didn't specify colors or patterns.
Look at the Jewish prayer shawl, for instance, it is patterned with horizontal lines at the end. They used this in antiquity. God also instructed them to put tassels/fringes on the corners of their clothes (Number 15:38, Deut. 22:12).
According to your standard, fringes will be 'adornment' or drawing attention to oneself.
They also wore sandals in Jesus' day, so it is not necessary to have one's feet entirely covered, and would roll up their skirts
*** We see no scriptures where women rolled up their skirts. We see that men were to gird their loins, one example is Job 38:3
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Would you consider the following immodest? If so, on what biblical accounts?
Granted the woman is wearing very loose pants but pants were not invented in biblical times. The priests wore breeches but the men did not and neither did the women. They wore similar tunic-like garments yet men and women were instructed not to wear clothes pertaining to the other gender.
Sister mentioned in one blog that she has shopped in the men's section of thrift stores for oversized shirts that cover well...does this count as cross-dressing?
Do pants count as cross-dressing?
Would siblings of different gender sharing a 'unisex' jacket, be considered cross-dressers?
For head coverings, it is established that women cover their heads when praying or prophesying in the church.
*** 'Church' is an unbiblical term please see an article about that here:
http://spiritandtruthdiscernment.blogspot.com/search/label/Church%20vs%20the%20biblical%20Ekklesia
These are the conditions. If they were covering their heads all the time, or if they came in with their head covered already, Paul wouldn't have stated the conditions.
You used the example of Rebecca when she saw Isaac and then veiled her face. This suggests that it was part of a lady's garment, and could be removed and placed on the head at any time. which explains why it would hang.
I see that sister covers her head all the time, I suppose you're keeping this in line with "pray without ceasing..."?
Your definition of biblical attire disregards cultural/ethnic influence.
The cultures back then shared similar attire -- tunic-like garments/generally very modest so the distinction of dressing modestly as applied to today would mean appropriately (covered and not revealing/provocative/inexpensive) versus back then when it meant specifically not expensive and extravagant. For instance, if a traditional hindu/muslim from India or an Arab speaking nation accepted Christ, their sari and outfits which are already modest wouldn't have to look like yours to be considered modest.
I apologize if it seems I'm being aggressive, I just want clarifications on these topics and for you to consider believers who frequent your site in search of liberation from false ways. This is so as not to place a yoke on the necks of those who come across your sites.
In terms of women proclaiming the gospel, I've seen that you restrict it to women sharing the gospel with other women and doing so in a way that is in accordance with a meek and quiet spirit.
*** Women are to have a meek and quiet spirit per God's Word, which is what we teach. If someone is against that teaching they need to examine their hearts through God's Word.
Yet, we see the woman at the well by whose word her whole town believed. I'm sure she would have been glad to use a 'mic' to proclaim her encounter with Christ.
Let's take a look also at the fact that it was two women who proclaimed to the Apostles/disciples the resurrection of Christ.
Preaching means to proclaim, so women may and should preach the gospel.
A meek and gentle spirit does not constitute mute or helpless.
It is true that women shouldn't teach men in the church gathering but Scripture suggests it may happen outside the church.
Priscilla and Aquila demonstrated that women teaching can happen outside the church provided there's another man present.
Eunice and Lois also raised and taught Timothy.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are also without gender partiality, or are we going to limit the gift of teaching (outside the church) to men only...?
Also, seeing that the Apostles' doctrine is accessible to all now via the entire word of God, is it still teaching if a woman shares bible verses (particularly those highlighting doctrine) with a man...? What about situations where if the man teaching teaches the wrong doctrine and there is a woman with more biblical knowledge than him...what is to be done?
There are also women with the gift of prophecy and discernment who are encouraged to use it to the edification of the church. How can such a woman inform the congregation on prophecy (proclaiming the will of God) without it appearing that she is teaching the men...?
There's also private prophecy that sometimes comes from a woman to a man...should a woman not tell the man or even correct him if this is the message to deliver...?
Please note that I am an advocate for women being in their role but as to the gifts of the Spirit and how these gifts operate within the body of Christ, it seems unclear...
For godly women's ministry, sister suggested daycare (which she also emphasized one must carefully consider). Wouldn't this be similar to Sunday school?
Also, say that one realizes that a church organization is keeping false ways, can this individual still teach the Sunday school children the way of the Lord that is in accordance with the word of God, instead of leaving that organization entirely?
Lastly, you mention that instrumental music is carnal yet Psalms 98 says to praise the Lord with the harp, trumpet and the lyre.
At what point do we draw a line between appropriate and inappropriate worship considering the fact that true worship is in the lifestyle of an obedient believer, and the expression of their gratitude to God comes in many forms and through their natural talents (like playing the instrument).
How do we reconcile, doing all things to the glory of God, including one's talent for playing instruments and composing songs like David did? What about composing songs for one's spouse...?or writing a poem..? or letters?
Thank you for reading this email in its entirety. I appreciate your response. God bless.
We always welcome questions on clarification and can refer most any answer through our detailed articles. We take truth from God's Word and write in great detail to help the brethren glorify God by conforming to it.
God be praised.
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